Episode 15
Education and technology are great equalizers, but they can also have an adverse effect if not done well. As companies think about using AI to create better business outcomes, they also need to think about how to bring in people who haven’t had those opportunities before.
Husena Jadliwala:
Welcome to Educator Insights, the podcast from Magic EdTech where we explore the ideas and innovations shaping the future of learning. Today’s episode is a special collaboration with The Talent Lab Podcast.
I’m your host, Husena Jadliwala, and I’m thrilled to be joined by two incredible voices who are rethinking how people enter and thrive in tech careers. First, we have Michael Oppong, Director of Alumni Success at the Marcy Lab School and co-host of The Talent Lab Podcast. Alongside him is Tom Riendeau, Vice President of Workforce and Learning Skills at Magic EdTech.
Thank you both so much for being here. Michael, Tom, I’d love for you to introduce yourselves in your own words and share a little about the work you’re doing right now.…
Michael Oppong:
Thanks so much for having me here. I’m Michael Oppong, co-founder of Talent Lab Solutions alongside Chris Blackett. At Talent Labs, we’re building a community of people passionate about the intersection of education, technology, equity, and workforce development.
I’m also the Director of Alumni Success at the Marcy Lab School. At Marcy, we provide a tuition-free, college-alternative program for young people who want to enter careers in technology, specifically in software engineering and data analytics.
Tom Riendeau:
Thank you, Husena. I’ve spent more than 30 years working with career learners. And just to give a little context to what that means for me here at Magic, I think of of of any workforce-related conversation from an early memory that I had as as an academic advisor at what’s now Excelsior University, where I had students on the phone early in the spring in tears because they were so focused on where they needed to get to in their career.
And being able to help them move that along and then seeing them at graduation with their kids holding up their “yay mom!” signs, that’s something I’ve never forgotten.
So translating into what we do at Magic, we’re helping learning companies of all kinds and colleges and universities and publishers either create new digital learning content, enhance the content that they have, or help them manage and support their learning platforms.
Husena Jadliwala:
Thank you so much, Tom. And, that’s ah that’s a good segway into starting with the first discussion point, which is the big picture. There’s been a lot of debate lately about the value of a college degree.
So when you both think about how people enter tech today, what feels broken about the old system? And what do you see starting to take its place?
Michael, if you want to go ahead first.
Michael Oppong:
Yeah, I think the truth is that the college market has been bloated for some time. I think much of that is because there’s a lot of money being made. And so as a result, there are a number of institutions that are taking advantage of a market of people or market of young people who have been told all their lives that college is the only way.
And so we’ve recently seen more things come to light. Enrollment is down at many institutions and oftentimes people aren’t getting the value that they believe they would get out of these institutions, except for many of the elite ones.
And so in terms of what feels broken to me, is that you know colleges are not providing valuable value. A lot of them are moving away too slow and aren’t able to keep up with the changes of the tech industry.
I know at the Marcy Lab School, we operate like a startup, right? So we are constantly learning, constantly tweaking, constantly changing things so we can best support our fellows and our alumni as they look to enter the tech industry.
This is going to be even more important with the rise of artificial intelligence, which is moving at a rapid pace. And so, these institutions, the ones that still exist and the ones that will be open, because I think many of them are closing, will need to adapt quickly in order to best support the people who are learning in their institutions.
Husena Jadliwala
No, that’s totally fair. I was going to go into that next, but Tom, if you have anything to add to that first.
Tom Riendeau:
Yeah, I would add that a lot of what I think is going on that we would call broken is actually a mismatch between what the learner actually needs, what’s going to advance their life, what’s going to set them on a path a path to lifelong learning, and what’s going to help them advance in their career.
and what the expectation of the institution is. That translates into both wasted time, but also, you know, the major elephant in the room is it’s creating a tremendous wasted cost for learners and fixing that problem. Making things more relevant, making them more focused, will not only create more value for students, but also will save them money. And I think it’s hard to look at what’s going on and not think about the tremendous costs and debt that a lot of students are taking on right now.
Husena Jadliwala:
Exactly. I mean, Michael, you rightfully spoke about AI as well. It’s really changing how people learn, build, and obviously how they get hired. So let’s move into what you think this shift is going to do in terms of reshaping what it means to be job ready, especially in tech today.
Michael Oppong:
Yeah, I can kick us off. I think the expectations are much higher from employers. And I see this at my work with Marcy. Employers have a much higher baseline than they did previously. And so specifically, when it comes to anyone entering the tech industry right now, one of the most important things will be your durable skills. Some people call these soft skills, professional skills.
These have always been important, but as you know artificial intelligence takes more ownership over kind of the everyday task, those durable skills around communication and collaboration are much more important.
Husena Jadliwala
Those soft skills, basically.
Michael Oppong
Yes, those soft skills. And so as institutions think about how to prepare their young people, they need to think about how they can help them develop those durable skills.
(07:52.63) Tom Riendeau:
Yeah, I think that’s exactly right. I would say that with all of the promise of AI, and we’re already starting to see this, especially in career and technical education, and I think we’re going to see just incredible advances, it doesn’t change what it means to be in the world of work.
And so, especially when you’re thinking of younger learners, what do they need to be part of a professional organization with those durable skills but it’s also what’s advancing them in terms of the real world. I think a lot of our education when it’s not working can be too theoretical and not relevant.
So having opportunities that are more project based, having ways to collaborate that are more like the professional world, I think, especially for tech workers is going to become essential.
And that potentially could help to solve the issue for ah students entering the workforce who don’t necessarily have a lot of experience if they have projects that they’ve worked on, if they have real credentials that that can speak to that and real artifacts that show the work that they’ve done and and the ideas that they have. I think that could make them far more valuable to employers than simply saying, hey, I have a Bachelor of Science in X.
(09:56.81) Husena Jadliwala:
Right. And, you know, honestly, I think you’ve answered the next part, which I was going into as well, which was, what really matters more than a diploma right now?
Soft skills, real life application of what you’re doing, just all of that, I think, does matter more. And it’s something I’ve also been thinking about a lot, just, you know, looking at my nieces, for example, and wondering what the future really holds for them.
But despite that, even with new pathways opening up, we know that access isn’t equal. So getting into tech is still harder for some people than others. How can we make sure that the new ways of learning, whether it’s online programs or AI tools, actually open doors instead of widening the gaps?
(10:24.82) Tom Riendeau:
Yeah, and Michael, I’m sure you, you know, the work that you’re doing at Marcy Labs that you want to dive into this. I would just say as the parent of a college senior that, you know what I think is going to help him the most and what’s going to help other other learners is that opportunity to actually dive into the work, to to have those projects, to create that portfolio. I worry that the privilege of having the latest and greatest hardware tools at home will unfairly advantage some students over others, but schools can help close that gap.
By helping create the actual projects that will show talent, that will nurture talent, that will build up talent. Those opportunities to collaborate with other learners and build out those artifacts, I think, are what’s going to help level the playing field. But ah Michael, I’d love to hear from you on the work you’re doing and how we can take a simple idea and actually make it much deeper and richer.
(11:46.16) Michael Oppong:
Yeah, I think one of the most amazing things about the Marcy Lab School is that it’s free, and comes at no cost to the learners. And, you know, we know that historically there’s lots of boot camps who charge a ton of money to access this opportunity of getting to the tech industry.
I think with AI tools and other things of that nature, we already see that there are some restrictions based on how much you can pay to use a tool. right I use Claude all the time and I love Claude, um but I’m only able to use it to a certain extent each day right or else I run out of credits. And so making sure that um there are programs and opportunities that are free and accessible to all types of people, all people from different demographics this is incredibly important.
And so, you know, Marcy is a good example of that. There’s some apprenticeship programs that make things more accessible to different types of people. There are a few fellowships that make things more accessible when and in all these programs and all of these tools, you really have to teach people how to learn and also give them access to these tools.
(13:23.39) Husena Jadliwala:
Michael, your work is really, Massey Lab School, is really a powerful example of talent, coming from everywhere. And what you mentioned makes a lot of sense. But many employees, and not employees, sorry, many employers still default to traditional credentials.
So how can we get, you know, schools, ed tech companies, or tech companies in general, and employers kind of work together to help more people get the recognition they deserve outside of the traditional credentials that may not necessarily be as useful going forward.
(13.47.01) Michael Oppong:
Yeah, I think when this is most successful, everyone is working together. Work cannot be done in isolation. It takes all people from different sides of the market to come together and work towards this goal, right? So it’s a consortium of sorts. And so this allows for very steady and dynamic communication between all these parties.
So everyone is getting what they need and everyone is satisfied, right? And so I’ve seen this be most but successful most successful when you know, at Marcy, our employer partners are, meeting with us, are able to offer us feedback so we can improve.
We’re able to offer them feedback so they can improve their processes and the way they hire. And that’s when it works the best, when there’s constant communication between all parties and we’re all working towards the same goal.
(14:40.96) Husena Jadliwala:
Do you see that happening enough?
(14.43.51) Michael Oppong:
No, definitely not happening enough. I think this is like, this is one of the major limiting factors to kind of supporting this work and making sure that companies know and can access talent from everywhere.
But this is something that definitely needs to happen more often. I’m excited to um do that work and work for any employers who are interested in continuing that work.
(15:09.70) Husena Jadliwala:
That makes sense. Tom, if you wanted to add anything to that?
(15:13.47) Tom Riendeau:
Yeah, and I would say there are good examples of employers who are partnered with institutions. I think in the community college space, for example, there are good examples where the learning is built with the employer from the beginning. What are the needs for the local geography? What does the community actually want?
And building the program that way, as opposed to a kind of field of dreams approach where you build out several new programs and hope that that’s going to lead to jobs and hope that employers will come when the reality is. That may not be the case. And if you’re constantly speculating, you’re not actually meeting the needs of your community.
I think that’s absolutely essential. But to Michael’s point, we need a lot more of that. And we’re just at the beginning of doing that. But I think if we highlight the organizations that are doing that really well, that will help us move to um a more effective workforce learning.
(16:45.76) Husena Jadliwala:
Yeah, and what we’re discussing right now is, moving away from how things have been to how things should be. So that’s kind of what we’re discussing. But that’s and we are reaching towards the end of the conversation. But I think what we should do is end with a thought experiment.
So let’s imagine that things have not been happening the way they have so far. So if you could redesign the way people get into tech careers today with the landscape that we see today, what would that look like? What’s the very first thing that you would change?
(17:07.38) Tom Riendeau:
Michael, do you want to take that first?
(17:10.44) Michael Oppong:
Yes, I can take that first. So I think it’s a three-step process. It’s probably more nuanced than that. But the three buckets I see are first being exposed. And this is employer-led exposure.
So employers need to take an active role in opening up you know the veil or the curtains of what these opportunities are.
When I was growing up, I only knew of a few careers, doctor, teacher, engineer, or lawyer. I had no idea that a software engineer even existed.
And now I know about product managers and project managers and all these different roles and opportunities that exist. And there are many young people out there who don’t know about these careers. So I think employers need to take a more active role in and in creating exposure around the opportunities that exist in these industries so because many people ah depending on where they grew up or their demographics may not know that these roles exist. And by the time they figure it out later on their journeys, they’re kind of at a bit of a disadvantage.
Next is the kind of access, which I’ve spoken about before. There needs to be more access to these opportunities. I think one major way this can be improved is just removing the college requirement, right?
In applications. And so that’s one way that more access can be provided for folks. And then another huge barrier that many people have is a lot of people get jobs by referrals, right? And there are so many people who don’t have access to their uncle or their friend or their fraternity brother who can refer them to a meta or a Google or wherever it may be. So I know this is tough and I know the challenges that folks who are recruiting have to go through to find the right candidates, but I’m wondering how we can make sure that network wild referrals are not the limiting factors to someone accessing a job or a career that can change their lives.
(19:41.07) Tom Riendeau:
Yeah, I would add to that. Employers need ROI, right? None of this works if it’s, if it’s, we’re not actually delivering the learning that is going to help someone advance their career, that’s going to help the organization that’s hiring them to advance their mission.
So, starting from that point, more opportunities to break the barriers of a strict you know seven period day during your your primary and and secondary education to to break out of some of the strict structures that really served an earlier time well, but maybe don’t now to allow students to have more of a competency based education.
To allow them to create artifacts, to collaborate with each other. I know we’re making some really good strides on that and things are ah incredibly different than they were certainly when I was an undergraduate.
But if you can build out those artifacts to show employers, yes, they have the skills that you’re looking for, I think you create opportunity through that. And then the label you put on that artifact doesn’t really matter at that point if that person is ready to start their career and ready to create value for their employer. But none of that happens if it’s restricted to those of us who have all the privilege and all the opportunities. I think that’s exactly right.
And there, that is, you know rolling this back, I think that is where that, it’s essential that we create those good partnerships between employers, and learning institutions so that we can lift up everyone.
(21:27.11) Michael Oppong:
Yeah, in the spirit of what Tom said earlier, I do want to shout out some employer partners who are doing great work. We recently had an event with Google where they invited us to one of their offices and in Soho.
And we had a full day where we got to speak with software engineers. We got to tackle some problems and we got to hear from folks who had, you know, come from alternative backgrounds and got into the industry. It was really inspiring for our young people.
We have a partnership with Mizuho and they have an apprenticeship program. So I think apprenticeships are such a critical tool for getting people into careers because it allows them to learn and also work. And then finally, we have a partnership with Palo Alto and so they’ve done a great job of supporting our alumni and fellows in getting into tech careers. And so I want to shout out to all the people who are doing such great work. And I’m excited for more people to do similar work and take similar actions to support a more equitable tech industry.
(22:55.47) Husena Jadliwala:
And that’s amazing and thank you so much for sharing all of that. I just wanted to note that it’s true. I think back to when I was thinking about what to do while I was still in school, there were just these buckets of careers that, you know, Michael, that you mentioned. And I think this ages all three of us when we say that. But it’s true. It’s good that there are different pathways that students can take, but the awareness for that needs to be reached. So again, this has been such a rich conversation. Thank you both for sharing your insights.
It’s really clear that rethinking pathways into tech isn’t just about skills. It’s about equity, recognition, and you know collaboration, basically, across the whole ecosystem.
But before we close, I’d like to give each of you a chance to share any final thoughts or thank yous.
(23:29.05) Tom Riendeau:
Yeah, Husena, thank you so much for this opportunity. I want to talk about those soft skills because I think that the naming of that ah might downplay how important they are. I think especially, you know, let’s acknowledge coming out of COVID that we all took a hit and spent our lives on learning on Zoom, if we were even able to, wasn’t necessarily ideal.
And, you know, when I talk to education leaders, they have sounded a pretty similar theme, regardless of what their organization did, and that was that they weren’t worried about their students academic achievement, but they were worried about their social readiness. And so those soft skills are actually incredibly important because there are things like empathy. There are things like being able to work in a team collaboratively as people advance in their careers.
Building up those skills to be able to lead and coach your teammates. That basic social IQ is essential and we can’t lose that um in our design for these programs.
(24:54.65) Michael Oppong:
Yes, I want to thank you all for having me as well. I think a few things, I think education and technology are great equalizers, but they can also have an adverse effect if not done well. right And so I want to make sure that as companies are thinking about how to use use artificial intelligence to create more profits or create a better better business, they’re also thinking about how they can bring in people ah who have not existed in those spaces before or have not existed as much in those spaces before ah to bring the ideas and bring the tools and bring the products that can best support the world and make everyone have a better quality of living.
(25:42.03) Husena Jadliwala:
Thank you for sharing those final thoughts as well. Michael, Tom, thank you so much for joining me on Educator Insights. And thank you to our listeners for tuning in to this special collaboration with The Talent Lab podcast.
If you enjoyed today’s episode, be sure to subscribe and share it with a colleague or friend who cares about the future of tech careers.
Until next time, I’m Husena Jadliwala and this has been Educator Insights.
