Episode 16
The instructor’s role isn’t going away. What will disappear is poor teaching as AI pushes us to design learning that actually aligns with how the brain works.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Educator Insights. I’m one of your hosts, Olivia Lara-Gresty, and I’m excited to get us started. Today, we are joined by Frederick T. Wehrle, who’s the founder EDUO Studio. He also holds a PhD in Management Studies from the University of Paris-Sorbonne.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
and a degree in biology, which fun fact, I also hold. So that was fun for us to connect. And over his career, he’s shifted between research positions and leadership in continuing education, higher education.…
Olivia Lara-Gresty
And so we’re excited to talk today about blending some insights from neuroscience, behavioral science, and educational innovation. So Frederick, thanks for joining us.
Frederick
Thank you so much for having me.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
So I wanted to actually just start us off as a former educator myself and folks who are working in the education space. I’d love to ask you a little bit about how you feel that your education experience as a student and as a graduate student, maybe TA, those sorts of roles, but how that kind of informs some of your understanding of pedagogical excellence and sort of what’s needed in the educational space.
Frederick
Yeah, I couldn’t escape pedagogy because I come from a household of educators. Both my parents were in education. And so I’ve bathed in this since my youngest age.
Frederick
And I must say, I was not necessarily a big fan of the education that I received myself, K through 12. And in higher education, particularly in K through 12, what I did in Germany,
Frederick
was very interesting in terms of a very broad curriculum, but it was very, how to say, out of context. And so being very much a Gen Y, millennial, I was always wanting to know why I’m learning something and evidently, the answers were not necessarily forthcoming.
Frederick
And so I did ah I did my undergrad and master’s in Germany and in biology, as you said, but specializing in neuroscience and behavioral ecology. And it’s very interesting because I learned of a very nascent field in neuroscience, which was effectively looking into schema theory, which has been known in learning science and education science for a while.
Frederick
But in neuroscience, it actually has never really been deeply, if you want, studied until the late 2000s and started actually with animal experiments.
Frederick
But very quickly, the neuroscientists found out that most of what we have learned about learning in terms of building synapses and having to repeat things and rehearse things for synaptic pathways to strengthen and so on.
Frederick
That’s all true, but it’s a very specific mode of learning that is relatively rare and quite unique to the first years of your life normally.
Frederick
It’s the years where you have to flick a light switch 100 times to build the synaptic pathways of a light switch, if you want. But once you have context, your brain usually learns a completely different pathway.
Frederick
And through those pathways, you can basically assimilate information into an active schema, meaning it’s a framework, mental framework, that is active and that absorbs information and adapts to that new information almost instantaneously.
Frederick
So translating that into education, that means you’re basically learning instantaneously. So, I was very interested in that neuroscience and was able in my, during my PhD, which was actually in in consumer behavior, and not really related to this, I was able to apply it while I was working as a lecturer and later in program designer and director of an entire bachelor and then later director of accreditation and so on.
Frederick
So through all my positions I was able to kind of come back to this neuroscience and watch it as it evolved and kind of formalize it into a way of creating courses and curricula that is quite different.
Frederick
And in a nutshell is simply put is to teach everything within context, in which learning designers and experts would know as in context learning or applied or experiential learning.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
Yeah, I appreciate you, sharing a little bit about some of those connections. I think that as a former teacher myself, there’s so much that teachers are learning and being trained on, but there’s also so much from other fields that we’re attempting to put into practice, but sometimes don’t get enough time to really sit with the information, the research itself.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
So it’s cool to hear you share a little bit more on that. And I think we all share some, everyone’s had some experience in their educational pathway that was not totally what they were hoping for. Of course, hopefully everyone can name one good teacher, but there’s always something missing. So I appreciate you sharing that there were areas that clearly you’ve had some, some thoughts on where there’s room for innovation. And so I wanted to jump in,
Olivia Lara-Gresty
With EDUO Studio, you’ve been, I think, championing a really interesting concept of generative courses. And so before we get into depth of that, I know that you recently did a panel event with the United States Distance Learning Association.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
And through that panel, share a little bit about why you think generative courses are so important for the future of education. So I was curious if you could just speak a little bit to how you see the educational space changing, particularly with online learning. We know that there are many teachers and educators that they’re listening to who are online learning teachers, and then also folks who are trying to create those courses. So curious if we could talk a little bit about what you see as the future of online learning in that sense.
Frederick
Yeah, I mean, having overseen large portfolios of online courses and trying to prepare or keep them up to date even and prepare for all the changes that are coming, it became very obvious to me that online education or that model is really in and a vice at the moment or in a room that has the walls closing in on it on one side AI is driving so much change in almost every profession that the content really needs to be updated very frequently, particularly in continuing education, but even in higher education, primary education.
Frederick
The fields are changing, the applications are changing, and what you do in practice once you’re in working is changing very quickly.
Frederick
And so, you know, in particularly higher education, in many institutions, you have five to 10-year program or course review cycles. And already today or before AI, that didn’t make much sense for continuing education.
Frederick
But particularly now, if you have a field, I know marketing is evidently a little bit closer, that is changing completely within 12 months and then changing again for in the next 12 months and then again and so on and so forth for the foreseeable future.
Frederick
I cannot rely on my static content that I have created once and I pay the subject matter expert once to create. So the content system or the system that I had in place for updating my content doesn’t work anymore.
Frederick
Or if I want to use that system that I have, it will cost me basically my entire margin for the course to keep it up to date. On the other side, AI is also driving a different um user expectation. So if students are facing static content, they will very much on their own already go to AI and actually ask AI and learn with a chatbot, for example, rather than learning from the static content that they have.
Frederick
And they expect much more personalized content. They expect the ability to interact with the content. And so the model of I pay once a subject matter expert and instructional design team and then review every five years or so doesn’t work.
Frederick
And again, the key there being the static content being the problem, both for the cost of updating and B for the shifting demands of the students.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
Yeah. And oh, go ahead.
Frederick
So what I’ve been working on is effectively addressing very specifically that point is how can we figure out a solution that addresses this problem of static content. And interestingly enough, the core idea of the generative course model versus the online course model is to replace very specifically static course elements with interactive ones that are powered by AI.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
Yeah, and I appreciate you coming from sort of all angles here, right? There’s the fact that the space we are in, the expectations are changing in terms of what learners are looking for, but then also coming from an economic standpoint, you know, anyone who’s creating these online courses needs to think about a balance between the cost to update a course and then the you know risk of not updating that, right? What enrollment drops will be seen and even just as a you know course developer standing behind the quality of a course. And so
Olivia Lara-Gresty
I would love to just kind of provide our listeners with a definition in your mind. What are generative courses? Are these just courses that are completely generated by AI or how would you define them?
Frederick
Well, actually, I think that’s a maybe the name is not the the best chosen in that sense, but that’s actually inaccurate in the sense of there is a school out there and people out there, and I’ve worked on this quite a bit myself, who are trying to generate the entire course with AI.
Frederick
and it’s actually very good practice to try to do this because it allows you to figure out how to prompt correctly, but the content remains static, even if you create the entire course with AI. And so the problem remains.
Frederick
The point of the generative course is really the generative in the moment where the student has the opportunity to have AI create or generate the content when they are consulting it.
Frederick
So let me give a practical example. I think that’ll make it clearer. If I have a lesson text in an online course that has a certain structure, I remember course like the introduction to marketing starts in the first module with the history of marketing and the subject matter expert has decided to slice it from,I don’t know, to 1930s, 1930s to 1950s, and so on and so forth.
Frederick
So they have their structure and they have their nomenclature for these different phases. Instead of writing out what each phase is and creating the static content,
Frederick
the instructor can go and create a prompt for a platform such as Google LearnAbout or for an AI that has a study mode or learning mode that asks the AI to create that timeline.
Frederick
and explain the history of marketing in the chunks that the subject matter expert is interested in and chunking it in, so that the student effectively, at that moment, instead of being presented with a static text, clicks on a link, it opens the the the AI interface, and it gives you this, for example, generated timeline, and gives you as the student the opportunity to then dig deeper into each timeline.
Frederick
Honestly, while it’s still an experiment, learning about Google Learn About is probably the closest to being able to actually make sense in terms of a tool to use in this case.
Frederick
But again, Google Learn About is still an experiment. It basically creates a course page on the fly for you that’s interactive and that you can ask questions and engage with.
Frederick
But any institution could decide to create such a platform for itself. The key point here is that at that point, the student can ask any follow-up question, go deeper, go down rabbit holes, and try to explore the topic as much as they are interested in.
Frederick
And if the platform knows about the student, so let’s say knows the course content, knows the type of student, maybe even knows they them more personally, the AI can use metaphors that make sense for the student, can talk to them more personally, can present the content in a way that is conscious of what they already know what they don’t know and
Frederick
the AI can be parametered to make sure the student goes as far as they need to to really understand the content.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
So yeah, I heard a lot of pieces there. I think just to break it down a little bit. So I sort of started my question if it just created by AI, but it sounds like where we’re leaning on the subject matter experts, whether that’s an instructor or a course developer here, is really to guide some of the prompting that a student might might be doing, as well as, and so kind of that’s coming from what the curriculum is, and then also setting the parameters as to, OK,
Olivia Lara-Gresty
It might start with this prompt, but what is the learning objective that that student should ultimately get to?
Frederick
Yep.
So, if it’s to the the role of a subject matter expert or instructor here is to sort of guide the student towards some prompts that they can use with AI tools, that the students then kind of in the driver’s seat with some guidance on what prompts to use.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
And then as well as informing the learning objectives that the student should get to. So would the student be reaching those learning objectives through their rabbit holes or would there be, or what are sort of the guardrails that you’re envisioning so the student actually meets those learning objectives in the end?
Frederick
Well, that’s actually the easiest way to conceive of a generative course is to take an existing course where you, as the subject matter expert, have your defined learning objectives and you have your assessments set.
Frederick
So effectively, your course is auditable, it’s conforming to accreditation standards, and the difference is that you are effectively
Frederick
creating and designing prompts that the students will use to effectively read the content that you would like them to read, knowing that they can evidently interact with it and go down rabbit holes.
Frederick
The key point here is that the subject matter expert has a lot of accountability for the content that is generated.
Frederick
just as much as they have now accountability for the content that they create or write or generate on their own. And the way that works is, hey the institution needs to provide models and that have either the study mode or the something like Learn About that is vetted and these models are already functioning at the level or at the standard where they ground themselves in resources that are of a higher quality.
Frederick
So they don’t go to Reddit, for example, to find answers, so which, for example, learn about and and learning modes in general do, right so they have better grounding.
Frederick
So that’s one premise. But B, the particular accountability and responsibility of the instructor is to design the prompts and then engineer the prompts to the point where they have little variability in terms of their output and the output that they produce is reliably what they agree is a good output.
Frederick
right. So there is the quality element that comes from the models and the modes that are used and then there’s a quality element ah from the instructional designer sort instructional designer or its subject matter expert to make sure that the output is good. And then the third layer is actually that the subject matter expert uses aggregated data that is consistently fed back from these interactions that the students have to improve the prompts or potentially fine-tune the model.
Frederick
There’s even the possibility to allow the model to learn itself and improve itself. So it’s a quite interesting change here in terms of the interaction and how the student. The content that the student perceives is not created once and vetted once.
Frederick
The content that the student gets presented with is constantly controlled and is in a system that technically improves the quality over time. The rabbit hole thing comes up relatively frequently when you talk about generative courses.
Frederick
And to be very honest, I think this rabbit hole phenomenon of people going down rabbit holes when they start engaging with AI, is a temporary artifact, is something that’s happening right now because people are not yet used to using AI very efficiently.
Frederick
So the AI literacy is not necessarily there, but also they just went through an education system that never allowed them to go down rabbit holes, right? So I see it as a temporary effect and I’ve seen this happen with students and colleagues that they do go down rabbit holes for a while until they are actually able to kind of satiate their curiosity and kind of learn how to most efficiently use the tools and then it subsides.
Frederick
So with oncoming generations of Gen Alpha, I think we will have much less of that problem and it will be a temporary problem for us um Gen Z or adult learners.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
Yeah, I guess that that is actually a question. So, and I think I’m thinking back to that old Wikipedia game of finding, getting from one Wikipedia the other through those links, rabbit holes, whatever you’d like to call them in that sense.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
And so there’s definitely an element of curiosity here, I think, from you know, as a former science teacher, a big piece of the pedagogy, the pedagogical model essentially focused on inquiry based learning, right.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
Having students asking the questions and that’s been in other disciplines as well, they’re leveraging that, that skillset or that tool, which really serves as a motivator.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
So I think it’s interesting to think about this concept of rabbit holes as a temporary stage and one thing I would kind of ask about that is I think there is a huge benefit to those. I think to your point, like, you know,
Olivia Lara-Gresty
folks have not had the opportunity to be curious in that sense. But you mentioned it as something about AI literacy. So how do you see AI literacy changing, how people are relating to this rabbit hole concept, if they are effectively able to kind of start and a learning experience using Gen AI that accomplishes specific goals that have been preset versus walking away much more knowledgeable, but maybe not about any of the subjects that they walked into it planning to be.
Frederick
Well, as I said, I think I don’t know that you need to engineer or anyone needs to engineer particular guardrails on this because, I mean, if a student goes and learns much more than I ask them to learn, hooray, right? I pique their curiosity and so on. So that’s exciting to me.
Frederick
As an educator. And I’m actually extremely surprised that this has even been a discussion and is a recurrent discussion around students going down rabbit holes with AI because shouldn’t we all be extremely excited about this?
Frederick
but students have a means to satisfy their curiosity and, you know, like, think about how much we have discussed how hard it is for students to make transfers.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
Mm-hmm.
Frederick
of knowledge into other domains and so on. So yeah, if they start with something I gave them and they end up trailing into something completely different, as long as the output is of quality and with good models and so on and within a framework, I don’t see a problem there.
Frederick
But I also see I don’t see a problem in the sense that I believe that students will vary, or at least what I’ve seen, is that students can self-regulate a lot. Evidently, if they go down rabbit holes for hours and then they don’t get there to do their assignments or they don’t get their things done, I think they will be self-regulating relatively quickly.
Frederick
What I would urge designers to do, though, is to measure this and build it in this quality improvement process.
Frederick
Because in certain cases, it might be an indication that either the question was too broad or the prompt was too broad or that maybe not enough content was covered. Students might have gaps, might be individual students that need follow up for this and so on and so forth. So there’s a well of information in people going down rabbit holes as well.
Frederick
So as I said, I don’t see it as a problem particularly. I see it as an opportunity. And in the future, for people that have just grown up with AI or have become very comfortable with it, I don’t think they will have the same issues.
Frederick
I could go a little bit deeper, but I don’t want to trail off too much. There’s a whole thing about how we all learned through our K through 12 and higher education system that didn’t allow us necessarily to achieve mastery.
Frederick
And so we all accumulated certain gaps. And it’s quite interesting to consider that if students start learning with AI, they might learn at mastery from their youngest age.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
Wow, yeah, that’s a really interesting space to think about just the opportunity that we really have and in this day and age with education.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
And I think that actually does bring me to another question I wanted to ask about, you talked about learning gaps and we all know that not every educational experience is designed equitably or has equitable results even within the same classroom that sort of thing.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
And so I’m curious, you know, as we are. I think the first promise of AI was one of the first things that kept coming up was personalization, right?
Frederick
Hmm.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
And so I’m just curious for,
Olivia Lara-Gresty
students who might have more access or support, taking one of these courses, what can educators do to make these experiences inclusive and provide that guidance to the student who might get distracted and not reach their learning objective or may, you know, find gaps?
Olivia Lara-Gresty
How can educators make these experiences more inclusive and more equitable?
Frederick
Yeah, there’s a um there’s a lot there that can be done.
Frederick
There are some limitations in terms of access to the technology, but I think there’s a lot of good initiatives across the globe to make AI technology accessible to everybody.
Frederick
So I think that’s what’s actively being worked on. But I think where I’ve seen most of the inequities is to your point,
Frederick
the availability of somebody who can personally make sure each student has the possibility to close their gaps or to achieve mastery in any of the topics that are taught.
Frederick
And so from K through 12, you see evidently that in schools where you have crowded classrooms, very few teachers, That’s not necessarily possible and that’s where the inequities start.
Frederick
And this is where AI can intervene. I was on a panel here in the region and in LA a year ago and a lot of panelists were philosophizing about the ethics and the implications of AI on education. And one person was on the panel.
Frederick
She was a grandma. And she said, this is all nice and good, what you’re saying, but I must be honest. I went through K through 12 and learned absolutely nothing. Because when I was little, in my first years of schooling, I had trouble with my colors. I had trouble with my numbers
Frederick
and with my letters. And by the time, even though I raised my hand, by the time the teacher came around to me, the class was over. And so I ended up having such big gaps that I effectively felt like I learned nothing in 12 years of schooling.
Frederick
And she’s so happy and delighted that her granddaughter now has AI and can literally make sure with her mom when doing homework, that she understands absolutely everything that is taught.
Frederick
And that’s an incredibly powerful tool for equity in the sense that the entire systemic construct that exists that makes it so that marginalized communities, for example, do not have access to education that allows them to achieve mastery is counteracted, if you want.
Frederick
So if there is an effort in in school districts, for example, that are resource-stricken to provide this AI literacy to the families,
Frederick
of the kids, there’s a huge opportunity for them to develop systems and processes so that these families can use the readily accessible AI to make sure their kids achieve mastery and don’t accumulate gaps.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
Yeah, I appreciate you mentioning that. And I think as we think about bringing equity into education or continuing to do so through things like generative AI courses, generative courses, there’s a lot of talk on durable skills, I think, especially as you know knowledge is becoming very accessible.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
That’s what AI is doing for us. And so what really I think has been in sharp relief recently has been the skills and these durable skills. And so I’m curious from your perspective, as these courses and learning tools become more and more adaptive,
Olivia Lara-Gresty
What durable skills do you think students need to learn how to stay curious and thoughtful in this ever-changing world?
Frederick
It’s actually fascinating if you think about it. What is this… What is the constant… competence and skill that you need if everything constantly changes, right?
Frederick
And for me, that’s effectively learning. And it’s, I say this with all earnestly in the sense of one of the biggest issues we have today in higher education and K-12 is that this the schooling in many, many schools that we have
Frederick
extinguishes the flame of curiosity. And I think this has been talked about at length and realized at length that what is often called an industrialized curriculum, while it was beneficial a hundred years ago to educate the masses, has become a system that effectively, very efficiently turns off the curiosity of most of the students. So we have in the classroom the standard
Frederick
10% are still curious and 90% are just their phenomenon. And the problem that we’re facing there is that we effectively have trained 90% of the population to really see no purpose in learning and education.
Frederick
And yet, that is the only thing that will allow them to function in a world that is constantly changing, especially when almost every cognitive skill is in the process of being automated.
Frederick
And I remember a colleague asking me whether or not, or what I thought about how much AI was overhyped in education. And I said, I don’t believe it’s overhyped at all. I think it’s very much underhyped.
Frederick
I think people do not, people in general, many institutions and many educators do not fully grasp the depth of change that is already happening.
Frederick
in industry and the absolute necessity for people to be able and willing to learn for the rest of their lives constantly.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
Yeah, I think there’s a lot of conversations on the level, are we appropriately hyping or are we over under hyping in the changes that are taking place in our world?
Olivia Lara-Gresty
But I think it’s great to think about.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
And I think it’s going to be something that, you know, from ah K through 20 and and parents and guardians as well are going to need to be thinking about just how we are positioning education and what is really the purpose and goal? So I appreciate your thoughts on that. And so I’m curious about any recommendations you have for folks on where they can learn more about you. Do you know anything about generative courses or do you know how to support students with their AI-like literacy that you think would be good to recommend?
Frederick
I would recommend actually experimenting more than anything. And this is a little bit of some, it’s a situation I believe particular educators need to realize is that our reflex of, oh, where has this been researched? Give me the book, give me the paper, give me the example.
Frederick
Doesn’t really work at a time of an industrial revolution with accelerated technological change um because A, most of the things haven’t been researched yet.
Frederick
And if they have been researched by the time they’re published, technology is a universe away, right, in terms of capabilities. So a lot of the discourse that I see in education right now is actually based on model capabilities from the past year, which seems 10 years ago and in AI time.
Frederick
People are still talking about hallucinations and things like this. And so the interesting perspective that I would give to people, and this is both educators and learners, is you have all the answers basically in the tools.
Frederick
The only thing is choose your tools with care, meaning if you take a cheap open model, your output will be quite mediocre.
Frederick
but choose the, if you can, the higher quality tools that are available to you. They’re still not necessarily cost prohibitive. And then allow yourself to experiment with them. So the generative course model is very simple to implement and to test by effectively just trying to have content generated on the fly that you would otherwise have in your course.
Frederick
And many courses, many instructors already do this for their courses, right? They don’t tell anyone, but they have used generative AI to create course content. And many, many students out there use generative AI already to actually learn. They take, for example, the title or the content of the course and copy-paste it into a chat bot and then interact with the chat bot in order to ask their questions and learn the content.
Frederick
So it’s not far-fetched. It’s just for those who haven’t tried it and haven’t experienced it, I would very much recommend doing so.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
Yeah, and I want to actually push you on that if I can. You mentioned experimenting, which I think is extremely helpful and to your point how to stay really actually up to date.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
And I think with that some, there are folks out there who might say, well, how do I experiment, right? So there are tools out there and you know, pushing themselves to use the highest quality tools.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
When I think about experimenting there is, The idea of sort of playing around with it, you know, prompting, there’s also, hey I’m going to try the same prompt in five different tools. And so any specific ideas you have on how to actually experiment with some of these tools to stay up to date and sort of have that experience to speak from.
Frederick
Yes, so I would start with a very simple experiment, which is try to get generative AI to do what you are supposed to do. So when you’re an instructor and you’re generating course content,
Frederick
use the models that you have available and to your point, ideally test different models and then prompt it to generate the content that you’re supposed to generate, for example, for your course.
Frederick
If you’re a student, take the course content and try to make it so that it’s interesting to you, right and use prompts to to do that the key here is most people are still looking many many people I wouldn’t even say most but many people I’ve talked to are still looking to demonstrate to themselves that the output of generative AI is not as good as what they would produce. And so if you start the experiment, you will 100% find that to be a truth.
Frederick
The key of the experiment is to continue because you want to get to the point.
Frederick
You want to engineer the prompt that will allow the generative AI model to produce at the quality that is equal to yours or even better. And that’s the main difference in terms of the experimentation is what goal do you set yourself?
Frederick
If you tinker around and play around with it, you will very quickly find that the average output is average and biased and potentially full of hallucinations.
Frederick
Your task of the experimentation is how do I engineer the prompt, the interaction, so that it does produce at the same quality that I produce or better.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
That’s really helpful and spoken like a true educator thinking about stating those learning outcomes and objectives there. So I really appreciate your thoughts. I think that what you’re, what you’ve been working on and just the experience that you’re drawing from, I’m really interested to keep following along and seeing how, you know, generative courses and just, the shape of what education can look like really changes over the next few years and and many years to come.
Frederick
Yeah, and I’m excited to keep the discussion going also with the larger community. To be very honest, something we didn’t touch upon, but where it actually really gets exciting is once you have transformed your static content parts into generative ones, then you can actually go and try to transform your learning activities, your assignments,
Frederick
into generative ones and that’s where you get into the exciting field of simulations, either with chatbots or even with virtual environments where you can recreate entire scenarios that students can experience and and live through, for example, a learning experience.
Frederick
So there’s a whole world of beautiful learning activities and learning experiences that we can design with AI that we haven’t been able to do before.
Frederick
And if we are able to gain some bandwidth and allow ourselves to have time to design these learning activities to be more interactive,
Frederick
we can really get into a completely different realm of what a course looks like. And it’s not just going to be an online course where parts are generatively created or generated, but it’s going to be a course where students are living an entire interactive experience.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
Yeah, there’s so much to look forward to and also to kind of stay curious about and to stay on theme. But appreciate you for joining us today. And definitely anyone who wants to stay involved in the conversation, reach out to our team here and definitely to Frederick to learn more about what he’s working on and continue the conversation.
Olivia Lara-Gresty
But thank you so much, Frederick, for joining us. I really appreciate having you. And thanks, everyone, for listening.
Frederick
Thank you so much for having me.
